Another Internet-based diatribe filled with hate-rhetoric and uncivilized verbal attacks has been published yet again, thanks once more to the heresy-hunting blog called Slice of Laodicea, which is run by Ingrid Schlueter (who according to some onlookers, is little more than a zealous distributor of negative propaganda from out of far right—usually regarding Rick Warren, the emerging church, evangelicalism in general, and basically, anyone who disagree with her position on a number of issues).
The latest hit-piece to appear at Shclueter’s website, titled “Rick Warren Gives a ‘Purpose Driven Grilling’ of Obama and McCain” by Kevin Williams, is a textbook example of everything now destroying civil discourse in our great country. According to Williams, the entire duel-interview held by Rick Warren with presidential candidates John McCain and Barack Obama was little more than a show of hypocrisy and lies. Williams went so far as to call both Obama AND McCain “people faking to be Christians.”
I offer key statements from the article by Williams in order to demonstrate the kind of ungodly/unbiblical attitude infecting the church. The statements by Williams speak volumes about how mean-spirited, hate-filled, and antagonistic some sectors of the “Christian” community have become. It is tragic.
The comments by Williams (in green highlight) were made in response to the text of a PRNews article that was released titled The Saddleback Civil Forum Changes the Face of American Politics. Williams titled his article Rick Warren Gives a ‘Purpose Driven Grilling’ of Obama and McCain.
I DO NOT SUPPORT/ENDORSE THE FOLLOWING STATEMENTS QUOTED FROM THE ARTICLE BEING EXAMINED. THEY ARE FOR INFORMATION, DISCUSSION, ANALYSIS, EXAMINATION, AND EDIUCATIONAL PURPOSES ONLY. I STAND IN COMPLETE OPPOSITION TO SUCH HATE-SPEECH, ANTAGONISM, UNCIVILIZED DISCOURSE, AND JUDGMENTAL ATTACKS THAT ARE, IN MY OPINION, BASED ON: 1) FEAR; 2) ANGER; 3) IGNORANCE; AND 4) PREJUDICE.
* * * * * * *
In response to the PRNews sub-title, “The Saddleback Civil Forum Changes the Face of American Politics Pastor Rick Warren Stakes out Common Ground for the Common Good in Presumptive Presidential Nominees First Joint Appearance,” Mr. Williams declared: “Great I suspect Rick Warren will have much “common ground” with two people faking to be Christians.”
Here we have Williams actually making a definitive judgment not only on the salvationof both Obama AND McCain, but also on their integrity, which is brought into question since Williams seems to be saying they were lying! This is a terrifically bold assumption to make, given the fact that both of them, during the interview, seemed to profess sincerely profess a faith in Jesus Christ.
Next, Mr. Willimas took exception with this statement from the news release: “Dr. Rick Warren of Saddleback Church—at the Saddleback Civil Forum on the Presidency. This non-debate format event was broadcast live on several television and radio networks and live-streamed on many Internet sites. ‘We believe in the separation of church and state, but we do not believe in the separation of faith and politics,’ Warren said.” One would think that Williams would appreciate such a laudable sentiment. But instead, he mocked: “I agree doctor, you’re politics and willingness to share a platform with and promote a pro-abortion, pro-gay blasphemer, reveal a lot about your faith.”
It is unfortunate that such a contentious remark would be made when Warren was clearly just trying to bring everyone together in a place of discussion. And not only did Williams degrade the entire forum, but he seemed to also bring Warren’s own faith into question simply based on some of Obama’s views—as if Warren should be held accountable for Obama’s opinions by simply allowing Obama in the forum.
Williams then went on to say that Obama and McCain were essentially “[t]wo different wings, the same bird,” simply because Rick Warren declared: “I don’t happen to agree with everything either of the candidates teach or believe, but they both care deeply about America. They’re both patriots and they have very different views on how our nation can be strengthened.”
It is no surprise that one of the statements by Warrren that seemed to offend Williams the most was as follows: “We’ve got to learn to disagree without demonizing each other and we need to restore civility in our civil discourse and that’s the goal of the Saddleback Civil Forum.” To this civilized call for open, honest and rational discussions, Mr. Williams bristled: “Well it’s only issues like the murder of the unborn and taking God’s Name in vain, so no big deal for ‘America’s Pastor’ to ‘learn to disagree’ on. Just so long as we don’t get one of those judgmental Christians turning over tables with a whip.”
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THE ATTACKS CONTINUE
Williams had more to say, taking great umbridge at the following description of the forum found within the PRNews report: “The two-hour event, attended by nearly 5,000 church members in the main auditorium and remote overflow venues, began with Warren posing questions first to Sen. Obama. . . . The second half of the program featured the same questions directed to Sen. McCain by Warren, who stressed that the candidate had been placed “under a cone of silence” prior to his turn on stage.”
To this description of the event, Williams opined: “What more apt place to host two false Christians than Saddleback.” Once more we see Williams question the Christianity of others“—but this time, it was not just the Christianity of Warren, Obama, and McCain. No, with this comment, Williams denounced everyone at Saddleback Church as participants in a false Christianity!
In response to the news article’s statement, “Warren organized his thoughtful, yet hard-hitting line,” Mr. Williams continued his diatribe, saying: “Hard hitting? Is that a joke? Well I suppose for Mr ‘judge not less you be judged’ himself, it was kind of ‘hard hitting.’”
At this point in the hit-piece by Williams, he goes after the faith of both Obama and McCain in no uncertain terms, mocking and deriding their heartfelt answers. Consider the following replies he made to their statements, as quoted in the PRNews article:
“I know that I don’t walk alone” (Obama).
—Well that I don’t doubt, but I expect that Christ is not the One you’re walking with.
“But what it also means, I think, is a sense of obligation to embrace not just words, but also through deeds and expectations that God has for us” (Obama).
—How about, not murdering the unborn perhaps?
“And that means thinking about the least of these—acting justly, loving mercy and walking humbly with our God” (Obama).
—The most pro-abortion candidate in the history of the U.S. believes he’s acting “justly, loving mercy and walking humbly with our God.”
“It [i.e., faith in Jesus Christ] means I am saved and forgiven” (McCain).
—Really? Is this the same man who said Islam was an “honorable religion” and that “I admire the Islam. There’s a lot of good principles in it”?
“Our Judeo-Christian principles dictate that we do what we can to help people who are oppressed throughout the world” (McCain).
—So I expect you’d be in favor of the Olympians pulling out of China in support of the persecuted church there? Or are they empty words perhaps?
“I would like to tell you that I still think that even in the worst places in the world today, they still harbor this hope and dream someday to be like us and have freedom and democracy” (McCain).
—Oh yes, what people dream of, being able to vote for McCain or Obama.
“I am pro-choice because, ultimately, I don’t think women make these decisions casually.
—Well I don’t think the decision to fly planes into the World Trade Center was made “casually” either, but that doesn’t make it right.
“Both candidates agreed on the definition of marriage, believing it is a union between one man and one woman, a unique status that should be preserved. Obama said that he is for civil unions for same sex couples, but both he and McCain agreed that issue should be left to the states” (PRNEWS Description).
—Washing their hands over it. Where have I seen that before? [a reference to Pilot washing his hands of guilt for condemning Jesus to death].
Here we see nothing but a series of contentious remarks designed to degrade some of the most sincere answers I have ever heard from presidential candidates. With such response, Williams does nothing to help anyone analyze the content of the answers given by Obama or McCain. Such an opinion piece, in MY opinion, should have never been published. It not only misrepresents Christianity, but the American way of politics.
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CONCLUSION
Ingrid Schlueter has since removed this particular article from her website (without comment), but not before its damage had already been done to the minds of however many people might have read the article before it disappeared. Consequently, I call upon Schlueter to condemn in the strongest of terms not only such hate-speech, but also its author, Keven Williams. To do otherwise, in my opinion, is tantamount to brushing under the carpet and seeking to simply ignore the tragic level of unChristian behavior and verbiage that appeared on her blog.
Richard Abanes
Pop Culture Mix
PUBLIC LEGAL UPDATE
Soon after reposting the article by Mr. Williams as it originally appeared at Ingrid Schlueter’s blog, I received a letter of complaint from her, accusing me of infringing on her copyright of the article. She also called me personally, and left a message on my answering machine.
I have amended the above article to keep up the most important points, rather than allowing Ingrid to stifle free speech among bloggers, which in turn, could eventually limit our precious First Amendment rights. The travesty of losing our right to free speech must never be allowed. This article, therefore, will remain up, but in a slightly different form—i.e., one that is completely protected by the freedom of speech rights we have in the United States. I also sent the following email to her, notifying her of my intentions.
To: Ingrid Schlueter
FR: Richard Abanes
RE: Blog Article
Dear Ms. Schlueter,
I am in receipt of your complaint. The article in question has been amended per the guidelines established by FAIR USE laws that govern the United States. My article, titled “More Hate-Rhetoric Hits the Internet,” appears in a format that protected by my copyright on it—i.e., in a form that is substantially changed from the form in which it appeared on your website. In its current form, it is not only protected by U.S. Copyright Law, but also falls well-within the guidelines of FAIR USE.
Thank you,
RAbanes
Isn’t it HILARIOUS that the ones who quote Romans 16:17 more than anyone else are the ones who are creating divisions and obstacles and attempting to deceive (not to mention bully)the masses?
It’d be funny, if it wasn’t so sad.
Hey, I’ve been trying to send you email and keep getting a message that it’s delayed. Not sure what’s up with that, but there’s some comments over at huntingheresyhunters.wordpress.com that I think you’ll enjoy!
Blessings!
I’m a regular visitor to Ingrid’s site. That’s how I happen to be at your site this moment, checking out what she has written about.
I am so grateful to Ingrid and others like her who are willing to do their homework, take on people like you, and educate those of us who are teachable. I understand why she works so hard but your fighting against her is difficult to understand. Who are you working for?
I know a little about this sort of thing because I have been in the war against the government indoctrination system called school that has been going on for the last century or more. I’ve experienced the lies and dirty tricks that are used against people trying to expose what’s going on. My guess is you’d be one of those siding with the government and its brainwashing institutions.
I’m sorry to see you are no longer an apologist for the Christian faith and the Lord Jesus Christ. It seems the only person you defend any more is Pastor Rick Warren.
Kudo’s to Ingrid.
LEN: I’m sorry to see you are no longer an apologist for the Christian faith and the Lord Jesus Christ. It seems the only person you defend any more is Pastor Rick Warren.
RA: Instead of listening to propaganda and lies, you might want to look here before making such hurtful and and decidedly unChristian/unbiblical condemnations –
NEW BOOK AGAINST THE NEW AGE & ECKHART TOLLE
MAIN WEB PAGE WITH MULTIPLE APOLOGETIC BOOKS
R. Abanes
Richard, I don’t understand why you would attempt to discredit Ingrid. Her research is usually outstanding, her credentials equally good. People like her expose error and questionable doctrines & practises within the church – this only makes one draw closer to our Lord and Saviour and dig deeper into the truth. The modern day church has become a reproach on the Lord’s name, this is not helping…
Michael,
Ingrid has discredited herself. She is neither accurate nor careful in her so-called “research.” She does not allow comments on her blog — so she goes unchallenged. And when personally confronted with errors she has made, she ignores those corrections. On more than one occasion, she has misrepresented me, my faith, my views, my words, and my commitment to the doctrines of scripture. She sometimes does indeed expose error, but along the error she exposes are a lot of innocent parties she has slandered. This actually “helping” no one. She confuses issues, unnecessarily divides the Body of Christ, and spreads false accusations.
I offer as an example, one of her recent attack radio programs against me. The program was based on some statements I had made regarding the destruction and divisiveness I have sen across the Internet in recent months being caused by a number of so-called Online Discernment Ministries (ODMs). My original post appeared as follows:
Ingrid then hosted a radio program in which she raised the alarm bells of persecution far and wide, declaring that I was basically attacking all Bible-believing Christians. That program was both absurd and slanderous.
CONTRARY to what Ingrid and her guest implied, I have NEVER categorized as “extreme” any legitimate, biblically acceptable eschatology — i.e., the very popular premillenial views that include various stands on the rapture, Antichrist, tribulation, Great Apostasy, or literal Second Coming of Jesus Christ to judge the living and the dead.
My remarks, which Ingrid UTTERLY ripped out of context, were in reference to a “minority” of Christians who have become obsessed/fixated on such issues at the expense of clear thinking, rational analysis of world events, and care/caution when making pronouncements about people within the Body of Christ with whom they might disagree on any number of issues. Such persons have, in my opinion, lost all perspective and have launched a Holy Heresy Hunting Crusade that sees:
1) the Antichrist and his minions all around them (going so far as to make it a habit of falsely accusing the brethren of heresy),
2) false teachings in nearly every word spoken by anyone with whomever they might disagree on non-essential issues, and
3) enemies in those whom they should consider fellow believers.
This has gotten so bad that they are now using as a litmus test of someone’s Christianity (or Christian maturity) whether or not another individual agrees with their eschatology and/or signs of the times that THEY consider as such. This kind of measuring stick for someone’s Christianity (or maturity in the Lord) is NOWHERE in the Bible.
And, might I add, that contrary to what was alleged during that program (both directly and indirectly) – I MOST CERTAINLY embrace absolute truth from God as found in his Holy Word, and most DEFINITELY I do await with eager expectation the Second Coming of Jesus Christ in the flesh!!!!
Ironically, the radio show by Ingrid was a PERFECT illustration of the very thing I alleged in the remark they were reading to their listeners!!! The way they slice/diced my words, their misrepresentation of my thoughts, their excessive paranoia about persecution in that comment (which wasn’t persecution of any kind), their linking of my remarks to the kind of anti-Christian propaganda being put out by Theosophists/Lucifereans (excuse me, but ROFL) — it demonstrated beautifully exactly what I was saying.
You cannot reason with these people. You cannot have intelligent, thoughtful, honest, civilized, open discussions with them. They are living, it seems, in a world/reality of their own making where black has become white, up is down, right is left, yes means no, and vice versa. Truth and facts are what they determine are truth and facts — despite the objective evidence to the contrary. If anyone has become subjective and non-accepting of objective truth, again ironically, it is them!
This is indeed very cult-like responses. I stand by that assessment. And they are, in my opinion, a danger to the health of the Body of Christ —- this, I believe, is becoming most apparent as the days go by.
R. Abanes
If Ingrid wasn’t so shamefully divisive and untruthful she would be fun to watch. I have no doubt she is a believer in God. But I have never understood why as a Calvinist, as am I, she has an obsession of decrying the so-called “false teaching” of Rick Warren. If God indeeds calls the elect Rick Warren will never get in His way. My God is bigger than Rick Warren…..or Ingrid Schlueter.
Truth should never fear opposition. To host a “discernment ministry” and not allow an opposing point-of-view to attacks and opinions is at best highly questionable. What does truth have to hide from?
Any rational individual would stand amazed at any institution of learning offering only one view. Is that not why many of us conservative Christians criticize our public schools and send our children to Christian schools or home school them? Should we not be better than those we criticize?
Richard
Whilst I too completely reject the comments of Kevin Williams, your own protestations ring hollow. You write, “Ingrid Schlueter has since removed this particular article from her website…but not before its damage had already been done to the minds of however many people before it disappeared.”
So why did you repost it and thus compound the damage for those who had not already read it? This is disingenuous of you.
Since this article by Williams was so quickly withdrawn, a brief note expressing your satisfaction and appreciation of its removal would have been more than sufficient.
John: So why did you repost it and thus compound the damage for those who had not already read it? This is disingenuous of you.
RA: I appreciate your comment, although I am not sure why you would be so quick to jump to the conclusion that i am being disingenuous. In my defense, allow me to point out that the forums are different. In it’s original form and forum, the article by Williams was posted in a positive light. In its current form here, in MY forum, with my comments, it is being cast in a negative light.
For an analogy, I call your attention to various articles written by the Anti-Defamation League and the Southern Poverty Law Center–two organizations that have stood long and hard against virulent racism in America. In their articles discussing hate -rhetoric, they often must quote things and reproduced statements that are FAR more offensive than anything I have reproduced here. They do it for exposing to the world what might not otherwise be known/seen/read. Are they being disingenuous when they call those statements damaging? Hardly.
_________________
John: Since this article by Williams was so quickly withdrawn, a brief note expressing your satisfaction and appreciation of its removal would have been more than sufficient.
RA: If that is how YOU would have reacted or how YOU want to react now, then I support your decision. I would appreciate the same kind of tolerance for my decision, which is neither unbiblical, nor ungodly. We are commanded, in fact, to accurately/openly expose unChristlike conduct/speech.
R. Abanes
JohnB,
Ingrid’s a confessional lutheran and I think her husband is a Catholic. She’s not Calvinist. They went to my church a a few years ago.
Beaux,
Thank you for the correction if Ingrid is not a Calvinist. Ouch. See what an assumption can make? I assumed because of her close association with Steve Camp that she shared in his Calvinist theology. Hmmm. See how easy that happens.
One other questions…..why do some of the Slice folk like to use the word “whilst”? Perhaps “while” is just too “emergent” for them. LOL
Beaux,
You’re the closest we’ve gotten to the mysteries of Ingrid’s church membership/affiliation. I didn’t know she was Lutheran. What church was that she attended, if you don’t mind my asking?
Well, no I don’t mind. Peace Lutheran, Sussex. Pastor Peter Bender. Their kids went to the school as well. Very nice family. They moved out of state for a time.
I’m pretty shocked Ingrid’s “husband is a catholic” though. That would be just the height of hypocrisy and I don’t think even she could go that far. I’m skeptical on that one.
Well done Kevin Williams for speaking up for truth in this day and age when anyone that says “im a Christian” is accepted as one.
Reminder : A Christian is someone that has submitted to God and His Word …none of the 3 mentioned above have done that.People who defend heretics are as much to blame and will be answerable to God for that one day.
2Pe 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
Heb 10:31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
.
I’ve read some more at your site and your comments in various places like the Christian Research Network article on “Sanctimonious”, for instance. Reading these convinces me even more that you are primarily an apologist for Rick Warren. You might as well face the truth. It’s very plain.
LEN: Reading these convinces me even more that you are primarily an apologist for Rick Warren. You might as well face the truth. It’s very plain.
RA: The one not facing the truth is……you. Sorry. But it is extremely clear that the “truth” is something you do not seem to want. In the comment section of the article you mention — i.e., “Sanctimonious,” at http://christianresearchnetwork.info — I say nothing that would indicate I am “primarily an apologist for Rick Warren.” I simply present a few alternate opinions to the opinions held by others regarding Rick Warren.
For example, I correct Ingrid Schlueter for her misrepresentation of Warren’s P.E.A.C.E. Plan, pointing out that the absences of “Evangelisim” for the “E” in the P.E.A.C.E. Plan means nothing because “THE WHOLE PEACE PLAN is an evangelism strategy. Read the sub-heading “An Evangelism Strategy” in my article “What is the P.E.A.C.E. Plan?”
http://abanes.com/peace.html .
And I take it that you missed the following comment I made wherein I spoke about my most recent book against the New Age Movement, Eckhart Tolle, and Oprah Winfrey: “I write a book against the New Age/Eckhart Tolle, and I am still condemned – this time for not REALLY condemning the New Age out of pure motives, but instead just trying to just make a fast buck.”
I also pointed out the inconsistency of certain people like Ingird and their unwillingness to be fair-minded and balanced — that is hardly indicative of me being “primarily an apologist for Rick Warren.”
Did you even bother looking at the links I gave you? Here’s the truth about my apologetic work:
Sooooooo, I would greatly appreciate you facing the truth, my friend. I am apologist for the faith once and for all delivered to the saints (Jude 3). This does not mean I cannot have opinions about issues like Rick Warren and voice those opinions online. I should have the freedom to do that using spare time, without hearing false accusations raised about me being an “apologist” for a man, rather than the Christian faith.
I am not sure at all how anyone can look at my years of ministerial work defending the faith (including my most recent book against the New Age Movement), and yet still come to the bizarre conclusion that I have somehow abandoned the calling to defend the faith the faith in favor of defending a mere man — that is truly sad.
R. Abanes
Hey Richard,
I apologize for suggesting that Tom Schlueter was Catholic. He’s been Lutheran his entire life. Just talked to his pastor. Sorry for the misinformation–I was listening to hearsay. Hey did you see this? ROFL. What is this about? I must be behind the times?
http://www.purposedrivel.com/2008/08/abanes-and-his-friends-still-out-in-la.html
JUST FYI to ALL PERSONS!!!!!!!!!!!! The link provided here to purpose drivel is a link that criticizes an apparent parody/satire blog that pokes fun at various people associated with the Online Discernment Ministry crowd. This parody blog, called the Online Discernment Mafia, has a picture of me up on its website that places my head on the body of a pregnant woman. That short piece makes direct reference to a woman named INGRID SCHLUETER.
I AM IN NO WAY CONNECTED TO THIS BLOG CALLED Online Discernment Mafia. I DID NOT CREATE THAT ARTICLE THAT HAS MY PICTURE ON IT. And I posted a “ROFL” comment to that piece, only because it actually made me chuckle to see my face on top of a pregnant woman. It looks absolutely kooky. So, there it is. I HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH THAT article.
R. Abanes
You wrote:
“To this description of the event, Williams opined: “What more apt place to host two false Christians than Saddleback.” Once more we see Williams question the Christianity of others“—but this time, it was not just the Christianity of Warren, Obama, and McCain. No, with this comment, Williams denounced everyone at Saddleback Church as participants in a false Christianity!”
I’m sorry, what part of what Williams wrote is less than factual? Anyone who writes a book that says “It’s not about you” and then spends the rest of the book misquoting scripture to basically say “It’s all about you” obviously is just writing what people with itching ears want to hear. And if people with itching ears are listening to him week after week it would seem they are not too worried about their own spiritual condition or they would go to a church where they are taught the word of God.
[...] with all of you the fact that in an email I just received, Ingrid Schlueter (see these article: #1, #2, #3) has just threatened me with a legal RESTRAINING ORDER!!!!! I kid you [...]
JUST FYI to ALL PERSONS!!!!!!!!!!!! The link provided here to purpose drivel is a link that criticizes an apparent parody/satire blog that pokes fun at various people associated with the Online Discernment Ministry crowd.
Afraid your readers won’t be able to figure it out, Richard?
Seems some of your supporters here have a problem with that kind of clarification and exposing ‘error.’ I think you owe them an apology for stooping so low as to try and make sure they see the ‘error’ in that post!
johnb wrote
“If Ingrid wasn’t so shamefully divisive and untruthful she would be fun to watch. I have no doubt she is a believer in God. But I have never understood why as a Calvinist, as am I, she has an obsession of decrying the so-called “false teaching” of Rick Warren. If God indeeds calls the elect Rick Warren will never get in His way. My God is bigger than Rick Warren…..or Ingrid Schlueter.”
Is there some reason why you feel compelled, johnb, as a calvinist, you feel some compulsion to warn people about Ingrid Schlueter and other ODM’s for their “divisiveness” and “untruthfulness”? Is there some reason why R Abanes feels an obsession to defend Rick Warren, and shut down Ingrid if indeed the elect won’t be swayed by lies? (doesn’t matter what side of the RW issue you are on here btw.)
Perhaps God is compelling her to do this a la Ezekiel 33? No of course not, because YOU don’t see the point of it.
re: restraining order –
Turnabout is fair play. What since Richard threatens quite a few behind the scenes and then says “don’t share this with ANYONE”