Lighthouse Trails Research just attacked — of all people — Greg Laurie. Yes, I said Greg Laurie!
Has Laurie denied the Gospel? Has Laurie embraced another Jesus? Has he been caught with his secretary? Has he diverted church funds into his pocket? No. None of these things.
Greg Laurie has committed the crime of crime; the sin if sins — he, uhm, he disagrees with the ODM (Online Discernment Ministry) position on Rick Warren being a heretic of the worst order. That’s it. And this has become the standard of measure by which the ODMs now judge a person’s salvation and/or walk with Jesus and/or commitment to the Bible.
They’ve given Greg Laurie the dreaded and heretical “emerging” label and called him, for all intents and purposes, a promoter of New Age contemplative teachings.
___________BEGIN QUOTE
Greg Laurie Connects Purpose Driven to a Move of God – Gives Financial Support
“And now this brings us to the unpleasant task of reporting that Greg Laurie is giving a strong promotion of Rick Warren and Bill Hybels, which means he is indirectly promoting contemplative and emerging (which we will explain later in this article), and directly promoting Purpose Driven. And unfortunately, there is a twist to this story. . . .”
“Because Laurie has publicly connected Purpose Driven to a move of God and calls Willow Creek’s ’significant,’ Lighthouse Trails has no choice but to issue this warning to the body of Christ. . . .”
“Without a doubt, Laurie supports Purpose Driven. . . . This report will obviously be disheartening to many Calvary Chapel pastors and church goers who have believed that their movement was going to press forward into the future without these un-biblical movements. Laurie’s current promotion and financial backing of Rick Warren will cause many to wonder just which direction the Calvary Chapel movement will really end up going. . . .”
“It is our prayer that Greg Laurie will remove his financial backing from Rick Warren’s New York conference and send out a new letter denouncing what he previously suggested is a move of God. This coming November Greg Laurie will present “Preach the Word, a conference for Pastors and Leaders. Those joining him will include Alistair Begg, Chuck Smith, and John MacArthur. Perhaps these three men can help Greg Laurie remember the simple and true faith he found so many years ago.”
_________END QUOTE
Most interesting, of course, is the last sentence: “. . . help Greg Laurie remember the simple and true faith he found so many years ago.” This remark implies not-so-subtly that Laurie is now preaching/teaching and believing a faith that is not the “true faith.”
The Dombrowskis of Lighthouse Trails have just proven the point I’ve been trying to make for years: “No one is safe — The witch hunt is on.”
For more information on what is happening with the so-called discernment ministries, please read my article “Slanderers, Accusers, and Divisive Sinners.”
See first comment on this post for the official response from John Collins, Executive Director, Harvest Ministries.
R. Abanes
IMMEDIATE UPDATE
The unnecessary division in the Body of Christ has already started, as evidenced by some of the first comments about this issue that have already been posted at the RAPTURE READY message board regarding Laurie.
- Aww man, that is not good news. Seems like many, many good churches are very undercritical of RW’s work.
- Oh great. I go to a calvary chapel church. My pastor just spoke on the emerging church today and warned strongly against it and on August 31, Greg Laurie will be speaking at our church
- We all need to pray that Laurie would flee from this alignment with Warren and Hybels.
- No, say it isn’t so!! Another one bites the dust.
- I do however get nervous whenever he is seen as sympathetic to warren. This has been a re-occurring topic following him for some years, and warren was close to Greg before he (warren) went off the deep end .
- we need to pray for Greg Laurie
- et tu Greg??? NOOoooooo
This kind of division that is being caused by the so-called Online Discernment Ministries has absolutely poisoned the Body of Christ. “God, I pray, have your will. Stop the slanderers and accusers of the brethren.”
Richard Abanes
PopCultureMix
To Whom it May Concern:
Due to some erroneous information disseminated through Lighthouse
Trails, I wish to clarify our ministry mission and strategy for New
York City.
Greg Laurie and the Harvest team have been invited by a group of local
churches to hold a one night outreach in the Madison Square Garden on
Oct 19th. Harvest received funding from a NY based foundation for the
purpose of proclaiming the gospel in NY City. As a part of the church
mobilization process Harvest is working with the New York City
Leadership Center – a network hub for local church ministries.
This year the NYCLC is helping to coordinate ministry outreaches for
several national ministries including the 40 Days of Purpose
spearheaded by Rick Warren, the Leadership Network led by Bill Hybels,
a city-wide prayer walk, Harvest 08 with Greg Laurie, and several
other community-wide initiatives. Harvest has purchased a promotion’s
package through NYCLC that notifies and enlists support of local
churches in print, in video, and through mail providing exposure for
the crusade at both the 40 Days of Purpose and Leadership conferences.
It is this promotions arrangement that Lighthouse Trails has
identified as “financial support” for 40 Days of Purpose.
Harvest Ministries is supportive of all endeavors to strengthen the
church and present the gospel and would affirm churches in seeking to
participate in 40 Days of Purpose. However, it is inaccurate to say
the Harvest is”underwriting” that effort.
John Collins
Executive Director
Harvest Ministries
Well, It is sad to say but why is Harvest having to get together with other churches and /or denominations in order to have a “HARVEST CRUSADE”? Listening to Pastor Greg this is very sad to read about and I hav eheard not just him but CCFL as well. Does Harvest have to rely on man for the money? I have heard morning after morning Greg say have faith, then what is this telling followers.
With Leaders that are known to be considered as emergent teachers or promoters, why be involved with them if they are not teaching the TRUE gospel. Does this mean that Harvest is compromising in order to reach people? Has the way to salvation changed?
What I see is that there are many churches that seem to be confused and are not teaching their flock about how big this really is. If harvest wants to sway that way or be ecumenical as other groups then as Pastor Chuck says, leave, change your name, explain to your church the reasons for your doubts. And let Pastor Chuck remove him from the airwaves.
In MERE CHRISTIANITY, C. S. Lewis mentioned that the enemy is not worried over which lies we believe, as long as we do not focus on the truth. Having recently been on staff at a church transitioning into a Purpose Driven model, I have spent a good deal of time understanding and discussing what the model is all about. I have also attended a couple of conferences at Saddleback Church, and I have found that to crtiticize the church, its pastors, and its movement reflects unfounded judgment based soley on ignorance. The critics of Purpose Driven, and, consequently, of Greg Laurie, need to check their own positions on what the Gospel is all about. I may not prefer some of their methods, but, at the end of the day, thousands of souls have been presented with the biblical, orthodox Christ, and have trusted Him in repentance through those ministries.
Richard,
Are you behind this? If so I think it’s disgusting.
[OFFENSIVE LINK REMOVED - There is no reason to allow this link to be posted since I disagree vehemently with the approach of the website linked and find it offensive on many levels -- not to mention it's overall mean-spiritedness and invasion of someone's privacy - Richard Abanes].
> Are you behind this? If so I think it’s disgusting.
NO. No, no, no, no, no, no, and no. NOT my style — at all. And I gladly have no idea who it is.
RAbanes
So why don’t you speak out against this kind of slander? If it was your reputation wouldn’t you do it? Is it right to remain quiet just because someone you don’t like is getting mocked or made fun of? There are several blogs like that one including the discernment mafia website. It’s really mean spirited all of it.
BO,
TBH, I have a hard enough time keeping up with defending myself from the amount of slander/accusations being leveled at me, let alone trying to go around and defend everyone else (especially those slandering me) from others who are slandering them. I’ve ONLY spoken about the slander directed at Rick Warren because it directly impacts: 1) apologetics in general as a ministry; 2) my own church/pastor; and 3) statements I have made in my own professional writings about Warren (see my book Rick Warren and the Purpose That Drives Him).
But for the record — no one should be slandered, no matter who they are. No one should be mocked or ridiculed in a hateful way. Sometimes we as sinners make mistakes and slip, and say something we shouldn’t have said. But that’s just being human. And if we do that, then we need to apologize and ask for forgiveness — from those we’ve offended and also God.
But to keep up a concerted effort at slandering someone — well, that’s just a whole different animal, so to speak. And sadly, that is precisely what I see in the endless writings of many of these online discerners. I guess sin begets sin. And at this point, they are now getting a taste of their own medicine. It’s not right, but it happens. So, I do stand against it. We need to talk and understand each other and make change. Not hate each other, fight, belittle and seek to destroy each other — no matter how much we disagree.
R. Abanes
Thanks, Richard. I just saw you speaking against slander online and when I saw what they were doing to XXXXXXX [name removed] in dredging up [specifics removed], I don’t see anyone complaining about the over the top anti-odm sites. I appreciate you clarifying that you’re against that because sometimes you post at crn.info, and the same people posting there were the ones posting at the discernment faces blog. It always seems like the same bunch ganging up.
Pastor Greg was my pastor when I first came to Christ back in 1979. I have continued to be blessed by his ministry all these years. I still listen to him via the web and support Harvest Crusades financially. Greg Laurie is as uncomprimising as they come. Where do all the discernment ministries get off slandering people. scouring every prominent pastor, church and ministry, looking for the proverbial speck? Who deemed them the ultimate authority on who’s in and who’s out? I believe the Holy Spirit iand the word of God is good enough for me to help me discern heresy and compromise, thank you very much. For whatever it’s worth, Greg Laurie has my full support and Lighthouse Christian Trails can go fly a kite!!!
[...] in full swing. Lighthouse Trails Research Project (the same “ministry” that saw fit to attack Greg Laurie not too long ago) has now posted an article complete with conspiratorial implications and possible disastrous global [...]
What I don’t understand is why this organization that has the chutzpah to call itself a “ministry” goes around smearing reputations. Don’t they realize that if you spread stuff about other people, especially if it’s false, it’s called slander, and they can be held legally liable, should the ministries they are smearing decide to pursue that matter?
You’re very right Lori, on how the Word of God is “good enough to help [us] discern heresy and compromise”. I happen to go to Willow, and I don’t believe that inviting anyone from the “emergent” movement to speak at any of our conferences is giving them carte blanche endorsement, or any endorsement at all. It’s an effort to bring other voices and points of view into the mix, especially when they have insights into the arts, into leadership, student ministries, whatever the case may be. I’m also sure that the folks in charge of Willow’s conferences have some safeguards/accountability procedures in place so that the guest speakers who come are bringing stuff that’s doctrinally sound, and falls into line with the classic tenets of evangelical Christianity. So where this “ministry” gets off is absolutely beond me.
Thanks !
As an active member of Harvest, Riverside, for 5 years, I can say that my Pastor, Greg Laurie, has spoken out against the emerging/emergent church a number of times. To say he is “aligned with’ and financially supports’ Rick Warren because the same organization supports both ministries, is irresponsible and reckless. Are people just out to destroy this great man of faith, and others who do God’s work? Having been a believer for over 45 years, and raised in fundamental Baptist churches, I know my biblical doctrine. Greg Laurie’s doctrine is fundamentally sound. In time, people will see that this is true, and may God have mercy on the people who have discredited Greg, and in the process, been a hindrance to the furtherance of the spreading of the gosdpel.
Russ,
This is a tragic result of the rise of so-called online “discernment” ministries (ODMs) such as Lighthouse Trails. Greg Laurie is only one of many targets. They are attacking other men of God, as well, using false information, half-truths, and faulty reasoning.
Please spread the word about the existence of these alleged Online Discernment Ministries (ODMs) that are slandering Christians and accusing the brethren. The Online Discernment Ministries (ODMs) have been allowed to run rampant — attacking whom they wish, dividing the church, falsely accusing the brethren, spreading gossip/rumors, hurting those who are trusting them, etc. etc. etc.
It is high time for all these Online Discernment Ministries to be held truly accountable/responsible for what they say and do under the guise of defending the faith, standing for truth, and correcting error. They are dividing the Body of Christ.
Thanks for stopping by — please let others know about this blog, and also my main website. You might be interested in my current apologetic work (i.e., the real thing) on Eckhart Tolle and Oprah Winfrey.
Richard Abanes
The Word of God should be our standard, not everyone’s opinions and emotions.
Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. 2nd Tim 2:15
Well, I certainly agree with all of that Terri!!!! Truer words were never spoken.
[...] Lighthouse Trails Research ATTACKS Greg Laurie [...]
[...] Lighthouse Trails Research ATTACKS Greg Laurie [...]
In Billy Graham’s early days of his crusades, he was a staunch opponent of Roman Catholicism – that is until he met the Pope. Now you can find Catholics amongst his counsellors who refer attendees to their churches at his crusades. This is a well documented fact from interviews and videos that Mr. Graham has found a compromise that ‘works’ thru promoting ecumenicalism with error.
Greg Laurie has been touted as the next Billy Graham amongst evangelicals, and it would be a shame to see him go the same way with those who have embraced error in order to ‘preach the gospel’.
Is it enough to preach the truth and not also identify error and speak against it? I know that CC is a bit soft on taking a stance where brethren are concerned, whereas they will against the cults. But where do cults emerge from if not from embracing some error unchecked?
The fact that Warren’s books were removed from the Chapel store, shows that discernment exists. But extending the right hand of fellowship for pragmatic albeit good ends certainly brings confusion to that act. Which a compromise with error will always cause.
1. Last I heard, Warren’s books were not removed from ALL CC bookstores. Although this might have changed. And a good many CC pastors support Warren and feel that he is doing a fine job of preaching the gospel and reaching people for Christ — although they might not agree with all of Warren’s methods, his style, or approach to various issues. But there is room to agree to disagree agreeably. People are not instantly heretics because we disagree with them on certain “non-essentials” of the faith.
2. There is great debate among evangelicals regarding Roman Catholicism. This topic is one area on which there is room for disagreement. Do you believe that Christ was God in the flesh? Do you believe that Jesus dies for our sins? Do you believe in the Trinity & the Virgin Birth. Do you believe Jesus rose physically from the dead? Good? I do, too. if we happen to disagree on the nature of Roman Catholicism, that does not mean either of us are heretical or compromising. We simply see a very complex issue very differently and should not break fellowship with each other or be divided over that topic.
3. If you don’t like Rick Warren — fine. Present whatever disagreements you might have — just make sure they are based on fact and NOT on the multiple rumors, endless gossip, hurtful lies, out-of-context quotes, false accusations, and slanderous conclusions based on half truths & faulty logic that are all swiling around in cyberspace.
Richard Abanes
Hi Richard,
Well on a blogpage that is called Pop Culture Mix, I didn’t expect that you were endorsing that as something good! Yet this is what Warren does with scripture to promote his ideas which you say are only concerning ‘non-essentials’. And his Catholic ecumenicalism is also prevalent in his books, which apparently you don’t object to either.
A heretic needn’t deny the gospel directly, all he need to do is undermine the truth of scripture until the gospel itself is obscured from the minds of the people. And then error can be introduced unopposed. And this muddying of the scripture waters is exactly what Warren accomplishes in his books, by infusing his felt-needs psychobabble into it, yet never presenting the gospel at all.
And he claims to have trained 300,000+ pastors from over 100 countries in his leadership conferences – so what he writes and teaches is worth our consideration – and concern.
So whether or not you think Catholicism holds to the true gospel or not, how can you have doubts that in practice they deny it? For this is exactly what constitutes the makings of a cult. If you say that Christ alone is our Mediator, but then require that a Pope/priest must hear your confession for you to be forgiven – have you not just denied the truth you proclaimed?
The leaders of our churches are supposed to lead us to Christ. Those who would lead us away down the broad path ought to be marked so they can be avoided. And it matters not how loudly or often they say ‘Lord, Lord’, if in the final outcome we are hoping to find ourselves standing with Christ who is our Judge.
A true minister of Christ does not just proclaim the gospel, he lives it out in the care of those souls who have been entrusted to him. And if he cannot hold fast to the Word of God, we ought to have enough discernment to walk away, and warn others of the danger.
Robin,
I’m not sure what your negative reference to “Pop Culture” means. That term has EXTREMELY diverse definitions. Here at my blog I am using it generically by placing no value judgments on the term. I’m using it to simply describe the wide range of topics mentioned/discussed by me: celebrity, controversy, religion, entertainment, etc. etc. etc.
Now, on to a few more of your comments………
R: … this is what Warren does with scripture to promote his ideas which you say are only concerning ‘non-essentials’.
RA: Please provide any documentation that shows Warren promotes unbiblical concepts of God, Christ, salvation, the resurrection, or eschtaology. Thank you. In the absence of such documentation, then yes, the fact is that Warren’s ideas do indeed relate only to non-essentials of the faith. I ask that you read the following article I’ve written on the subject: The Doctrinal Essentials of Christianity (and Rick Warren).
__________
R: And his Catholic ecumenicalism is also prevalent in his books, which apparently you don’t object to either.
RA: Christians who love God and follow scripture disagree about Roman Catholicism. It’s as simple as that. Some take an extremely anti-Catholic stand going so far as to consider the RCC a full-blown cult of sorts, while others take a much softer stand that sees the RCC as a doctrinally problematic denomination of Christianity that includes many true Christians. It’s a complex disagreement among evangelicals/protestants that is rooted in how one views/interprets Catholic teachings. Godly men/women are on both sides of the debate. This is NOT an issue over which we should divide. We can disagree with each other, and even debate each other, but it is out of line (and unbiblical) to point one’s finger at someone who disagrees with us about the RCC and call them unbiblical or someone who has compromised the Gospel. We can agree to disagree agreeably over this issue.
Warren, like many other God-loving Christians, feel that true Christians also exist within the RCC. Warren’s views of Roman Catholicism are very similar to those held by a number of conservative, Bible-believing, evangelicals including myself, Ron Rhodes (who attended Saddleback when he lived in California), Gretchen Passantino-Cobern (Answers In Action), Hank Hanegraaff (president of the Christian Research Institute), and Dr. Norman Geisler, co-author with Ralph MacKenzie of Roman Catholics and Evangelicals (Baker Books, 1995).
Of particular relevance, is the book by Geisler and MacKenzie—both of whom are well-respected evangelical apologists. In their volume they discuss the many differences and similarities between Protestants and Roman Catholics. In fact, PART ONE of his book is dedicated to “Areas of Doctrinal Agreement” that lists eight major areas of doctrine that he says evangelicals share with Roman Catholics (120 pages worth). And on top of that, his entire PART THREE is dedicated to “Areas of Practical Cooperation” that includes social action, educational goals, spiritual heritage, and evangelism (see pp. 359-429).
Unfortunately, many of Warren’s critics are vehemently anti-Roman Catholic. This prejudice colors your view of other evangelical leaders—i.e., anyone who does not view RC like you is somehow compromising or heretical. For a quick, yet thorough look at Roman Catholicism from a balanced perspective, I recommend the numerous articles available from the Christian Research Institute on the subject (see resource list). In your one statement about Warren and Roman Catholics, you condemn a huge cross-section of not only lay Christians, but also apologists!
____________
R: …. A heretic needn’t deny the gospel directly
RA: Actually, he does. You CANNOT just start changing definitions of words to suit your own needs or agenda. A “HERETIC” is defined as follows:
heresy – unorthodoxy: any opinions or doctrines at variance with the official or orthodox position
heresy – an introduced change to some system of belief, especially a religion, that conflicts with the previously established canon of that belief.
heresy – a belief that rejects the orthodox tenets of a religion
heretical – dissident: characterized by departure from accepted beliefs or standards
This is what the word means. Clearly, it is based on what a person believes/teaches. Your definition is not a definition at all. It is something you invented. Moreover, you declared/implied that Warren is guilty of undermining “the truth of scripture until the gospel itself is obscured from the minds of the people.” And that is absolutely false. I suggest you read the following:
Rick Warren Preaches Salvation
Saddleback Church:
The Cross, Sin, and Hell
Repentance and Rick Warren
Sounds like fairly clear presentations of the Gospel to me.
_________
R: And this muddying of the scripture waters is exactly what Warren accomplishes in his books, by infusing his felt-needs psychobabble into it, yet never presenting the gospel at all.
RA: Really? Never presenting the Gospel “AT ALL.” Interesting. What do you call these statements?
Hmmm, again, sounds rather biblical and clear to me. Which Purpose Driven Life book are you reading? Or, perhaps I should ask: Have you read it?
___________
R: So whether or not you think Catholicism holds to the true gospel or not, how can you have doubts that in practice they deny it? For this is exactly what constitutes the makings of a cult. If you say that Christ alone is our Mediator, but then require that a Pope/priest must hear your confession for you to be forgiven – have you not just denied the truth you proclaimed?
RA: Please read the materials I recommended. I’m not going to enter into a debate about the RCC with you. I am not RCC. I disagree with the RCC. I left the RCC after I accepted Christ as my personal Lord & Savior. And the RCC has MANY doctrinal problems; serious doctrinal problems. But at the same time it is not a cult because it does not meet that criteria. And there are indeed many God-loving, Christ-honoring, dedicated to scripture believers within the RCC. Please read the suggested resources I noted on the RCC.
If you disagree with me. Fine. That doesn’t make me any less of a Christian or any less biblical than you. It means we disagree on this issue of debate. Don’t make it more than what it is and use a person’s stand on the RCC as a litmus test for orthodoxy. I suggest you also read Orthodoxy & Heresy: A Biblical Guide to Doctrinal Discernment by Rob Bowman.
__________
R: And if he cannot hold fast to the Word of God, we ought to have enough discernment to walk away, and warn others of the danger.
RA: The problem is that you now have far too many heresy-hunters and witch-hunters using cyberspace to accuse godly brothers/sisters of NOT holding “fast to the Word of God” simply because those brothers/sisters don’t happen to see every issue the same way that the heresy-hunters and witch-hunters see the issues.